Comments for Living the Hosea life: An open letter to my Presbyterian friends at http://pres-outlook.com , comment 1 to 12 out of 12 comments http://pres-outlook.com Thu, 20 Nov 2008 03:09:51 +0100 FeedCreator 1.7.3 http://pres-outlook.com/opinion/commentary/4137.html#comment-3078 Editor's note: James Crawford asks, 'Could someone just show me where a woman is serving in the EPC as an ordained pastor. I've been through their directory and can't seem to find one but perhaps it's just me.' According to the EPC's Associate Stated Clerk, Ed McCallum, they have two ordained women ministers. One served as a hospital chaplain until her recent retirement. The other presently serves as an associate pastor in a large church. - Jack Haberer Wed, 28 Feb 2007 12:00:00 +0100 http://pres-outlook.com/opinion/commentary/4137.html#comment-3070 I want to respond to the analogy offered by Faith Jongewaard in her Presbyterian Outlook article, 'Living the Hosea life: An open letter to my Presbyterian friends'. Marshaling this analogy in an effort to encourage evangelicals to stay in the PC(USA) will likely fail, and for a number of good reasons: Hosea was able to model for the people the faithful love of God to them because the people recognized that harlotry was wrong. The unfaithfulness of the PC(USA), however, is recognized as wrong neither by the progressives within the denomination nor by the culture outside of it, so to whom is the witness? The effectiveness of Hosea's witness depends upon the people being able to identify themselves with Gomer's shamefulness, but what if the unfaithful see themselves as having 'more light'? Additionally, any marriage analogy is problematic (in terms of encouraging people to stay) in that it brings to mind the circumstances within which divorce is permissible: unfaithfulness. Identifying the denomination with whoredom seems more likely to encourage divorce than it is to rally recommitment. Finally, the Hosea/Gomer analogy does not quite capture the dilemma of the PC(USA) faithful. It is not simply that we must tolerate Gomer and her harlotry; we must continue to fund the brothel as well. Those who choose to stay in the PC(USA) for whatever reason should consider this: you're getting what you pay for. - Bruce Byrne Mon, 26 Feb 2007 12:00:00 +0100 http://pres-outlook.com/opinion/commentary/4137.html#comment-3068 Faith Jongewaard wrote an interesting article referring to Hosea's unfaithful wife Gomer. The living metephor is of course Israel's unfaithfulness. If we look at the complete context of Israel in the time of the prophets it seems to me that Hosea's message was a warning. The end result was that all of Israel was brutally taken into captivity. They lost the land and the blessings of God. The PCUSA is not Israel, so I am not sure if we can draw a complete parallel. Greg Wiest - Greg Wiest Sat, 24 Feb 2007 12:00:00 +0100 http://pres-outlook.com/opinion/commentary/4137.html#comment-3066 Could someone just show me where a woman is serving in the EPC as an ordained pastor. I've been through their directory and can't seem to find one but perhaps it's just me. - James Crawford Thu, 22 Feb 2007 12:00:00 +0100 http://pres-outlook.com/opinion/commentary/4137.html#comment-3065 In her recent "open letter to my Presbyterian friends," Reverend Faith Jongewaard, states her basis for staying in a denominational marriage with the PC(USA). Interestingly, she concedes that the denomination is an adulterous, unfaithful, conniving and abusive "spouse," but she will stay because, like Hosea, she is called by God to stay. Good for her! faithfulness to God's call and to Scripture is a requirement for us all. We part ways, however, when she says "I can't help but think it has something to say to us in the PC(USA)--perhaps, especially, to those who might be considering leaving because we seem to have become an unfaithful church." In so doing, she seems to suggest that only her call is righteous, that those who have received a different call, a call to unyoke themselves from an apostate body, are being unfaithful. She implies that God's call to her is a universal call to all. In particular, she takes a potshot at the Evangelical Presbyterian Church and, by implication, the New Wineskins Association of Churches. As anyone who has read the Report of the NWAC Strategy Team should know, the red herring about ordination of women is just that. The NWAC has made it clear that in the NWEPC Presbytery ordination opportunities for women will be no different than in the current PC(USA), so long as the candidates meet the requirements regarding the constitutional Essential Tenets and Ethical Imperatives. Reverend Jongewaard admits that the PC(USA) has decided as a matter of institutional policy to "denigrate our Lord Jesus, question his atoning gift for us, [and] re-name God to fit our own ideas." She admits being "frustrated by what often seems an anything-goes approach to Scripture and a selective disregard for the clear meaning of our Constitution and the application of its discipline." She is "appalled at the vast amount of time and money--not to mention, words--we have wasted fighting with each other instead of moving into the world with the Good News of the saving work of Jesus Christ for all people everywhere." Let's look at those concerns. The first point bears no discussion. Denial of Christ and disobedience of God's commandment to respect His name is either egregiously sinful or our whole basis for Faith is nothing more than a common fraud. I would place the failure to stand for Scripture in this area as well. Second, a denomination is a man-made construct within the one holy, catholic and apostolic Church, implemented expressly to aid in discipline. When the institution ceases to perform its essential function, it is dead. Finally, how can we move into the world with the Good News of the saving work of Jesus Christ for all people everywhere when those we are approaching will soon learn that the News is indeed Good, but those who are spreading it are hypocrites. If we invite people into the web of an institution that does not live up the requirements imposed by the author of that Good News, they have every right to brand us charlatans. She concludes that "Like Hosea, like Jesus, we are called to lay down our lives, empty ourselves of our 'druthers' and serve the Lord by serving His people where He has placed us." She concedes that her call to stay can be qualified: "Perhaps, like Hosea, we have been called by God to stay. . ." I will concede the righteousness of her call to stay. In fact, the NWAC Strategy Team concluded that staying was a faithful option for those called by God to do so. I simply ask that, in light of her admission that the PC(USA) is an unfaithful spouse, Reverend Jongewaard likewise respect the righteous exercise of the other faithful option by those called to divorce that adulterous spouse, Matt 19:9, and to move to a New Thing. Michael R. McCarty Elder Forks of the Brandywine Presbyterian Church Glenmoore, PA. - Michael Mccarty Thu, 22 Feb 2007 12:00:00 +0100 http://pres-outlook.com/opinion/commentary/4137.html#comment-3062 Thank you Faith Jongewaard, for your thoughtful and gracious article. Sadly, I think you have correctly identified the most appropriate biblical metaphor for the PCUSA. However, one of my enduring problems as a Presbyterian Pastor is this: when someone is young in their faith in Christ, why do I have to shield and protect her/him from the very organization s/he is joining? - Daniel Vraa Thu, 22 Feb 2007 12:00:00 +0100 http://pres-outlook.com/opinion/commentary/4137.html#comment-3063 I appreciate Faith Jongewaard's thoughtful response to the turmoil in the PCUSA. I met several people of like mind at the NWAC Convocation in Orlando a couple of weeks ago. I also appreciate her ability to articulate her position without attacking the NWAC. I wish there were more like her in leadership positions in the PCUSA - and writing for the Outlook. As Toby Brown pointed out, the PCUSA is not the Church Universal. It's too bad that other recent writers seem unaware of that fact. - Steve Jones Thu, 22 Feb 2007 12:00:00 +0100 http://pres-outlook.com/opinion/commentary/4137.html#comment-3059 I thank Rev. Faith Jongeewaard for an excellent piece. I really resonated with it. Though I take Malcolm King's point, in response to her, to be that Hosea had a particular calling from God which not every pastor and layperson may have, still I deeply share Rev. Jongeewaard's calling, and I believe God is issuing such a call to many, many PC(USA) evangelicals and others. But I also have some thoughts about the "insult" of grace. There is a sense in which grace is always an insult. Grace says, "though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be white as snow." But the person (or church) who thinks they are pretty good already (certainly while they may be a little" "off white" they are not scarlet with sin!) might actually be insulted by the offer of God's sheer Grace with its accompanying dire assessment of the current seriousness of our sin. The irony in Rev. Jongeewaard's article is that I suspect that there are some in the church who might not, in their assessment of the PC(USA), have a clue what she is talking about. She, like many of us, apparently sees the denomination more as a mission field than as a Mecca. In contrast, I think of those who cheerily and incessantly talk about "how proud they are to be Presbyterians." They may never understand Ms. Jongewaard's reasons for staying. I have decided that doesn't really matter. Winfield Casey Jones First Presbyterian, Pearland, TX. - Winfield Jones Thu, 22 Feb 2007 12:00:00 +0100 http://pres-outlook.com/opinion/commentary/4137.html#comment-3057 My deepest gratitude to Faith Jongewaard for expressing exactly what I want to say, but much more beautifully and completely than I have been able to articulate. I, too, hope that those who are leaving understand the faithfulness of those who stay and monitor their speech to avoid wounding those brothers and sisters who need their encouragement and prayers as they stand in a Hosea situation within the PC(USA). - Marie Bowen Thu, 22 Feb 2007 12:00:00 +0100 http://pres-outlook.com/opinion/commentary/4137.html#comment-3058 Faith, Thanks very much for your personal witness and call to faithfulness! I, too am not leaving the PC(USA) and I too hear the call of God to stay faithful and witness and serve just where I am. I also believe that this is precisely where he has called me to be. However, while I am in full agreement with your premise that one can be faitful in the PC(USA) and that there is no perfect denomination, I must also caution that we dare not make pronouncements on the consciences of others. While you and I may clearly be called to stay and witness, there is the very real possibility that God is calling other brothers and sisters in Christ to depart to other Reformed church bodies. The analogy to the people of Israel does not fully fit the comparison to the denomination we are in. Clearly, denominations are not ethnic and no one denomination is the 'chosen race' for God! I am sure that you agree with that. Therefore, we dare not begin to say that the PC(USA) is comparable to The Church Universal. We are a vital part, yes, but we are still just one part of the church catholic. So is the EPC and so will the NWAC/EPC presbytery. Our fellow evangelicals so go or stay as the Spirit calls and their conscience dictates. I fully affirm that Scripture backs either option: either we can stay within a sometimes unfaithful body or we can depart for one that is far more faithful. But we should do all things for the glory of God and praise of our common Lord, faith and baptisms! I am very thankful that you are my fellow presbyter and colleague. Keep the faith! --Toby - Toby Brown Thu, 22 Feb 2007 12:00:00 +0100 http://pres-outlook.com/opinion/commentary/4137.html#comment-3056 Dear Editor, While what Faith Jongewaard says resonates with much of how I 'feel' about our present situation in the PC(USA)... and while I appreciate her attempt to use Scripture to illuminate our difficult relationships within the denomination... I would caution her, and myself, and others who would quickly adopt this as our 'rule' for the road ahead. Hosea did what he did because God told him that would be his mission in life. But God did not give everyone the mission of Hosea as well. The particular rule that governed Hosea's life was not made a general rule for all of God's people. At least that is not the way I read the lives of the other prophets. Just one example... Abraham was called to leave his people and start a new life so all the world could be blessed. His call was different than Hosea's, which was different than Micah's, which was.... You get the picture. Even our existence as a Protestant denomination begins with faithful people who realize that they can no longer serve God in an environment that is toxic to them and to the Gospel. So... while Faith believes herself to have a Hosea-like call, let us not forget that others may have a different call. So some will be faithful in staying, even as others of our brothers and sisters will be faithful in going. At the moment, I am on the same page with Faith and have no intention of leaving any time soon, but... God is in charge of the future, not me. Hesed ve shalom, Malcolm M. King III Pastor, FPC La Follette, TN - malcolm king Thu, 22 Feb 2007 12:00:00 +0100 http://pres-outlook.com/opinion/commentary/4137.html#comment-3055 Thanks to Faith Jongewaard for a thoughtful, helpful, and encouraging letter. And while we do not know eachother, I believe we are friends. I know we are sister and brother in Christ. While I cannot say that I will never (and I note that you did not use the word 'never') leave the PCUSA - although I do believe that in many ways it has left me - I pray that God will grant me the grace to know if and when I should shake the dust off of my feet. Until then, I shall remain as faithful as I can, thanking God for reasoned and reasonable folk like you. Don Stanley - Donald Stanley Thu, 22 Feb 2007 12:00:00 +0100