Comments for Guest viewpoint: Can I get a witness to love? at http://pres-outlook.com , comment 1 to 2 out of 2 comments http://pres-outlook.com Thu, 20 Nov 2008 10:01:10 +0100 FeedCreator 1.7.3 http://pres-outlook.com/opinion/guest-commentary/7448-can-i-get-a-witness-to-love.html#comment-3996 Please no flames here - firsts time commenter - I would have to take issue with Ms. Berkley's comparison to pedophiles and polygamists. The relationship between a pedophile and their 'prey' is certainly not one of equality and freedom to enter into an adult relationship. Also, the children who are born and raised in polygamist sects, have no knowledge of what would be considered a freely entered into adult relationship - they only know what they see in their closely segregated communities. Most of us would agree that divorce is also not part of God's plan for man/woman but we readily accept those who have suffered through a divorce for service in our congregations, and unless you've gone through one you have no idea of what suffering goes along with reaching that decision. It has always amazed me that people (Christian and not) can have such an aversion to what they imagine a GLB&T couple's relations must be BUT they can't go from that and say, 'wait, since I have such a problem with this, there must be something different going on with them' - a difference that maybe God didn't wish for his children in much the same way that I don't think God wishes for his children to suffer physical or mental disabilities but a true difference nevertheless. Maybe it's not the 'norm' but there it is and I have gay friends who are joyfully serving in non-presbyterian churches without having to sneak around about who they are. What is so scary about believing that two people of the same sex could have a loving, monogamous relationship AND that they could serve God and their church AND that God could bless that relationship and their service. I am not GLB or T, but I have no reason to believe that God doesn't love them just like he loves me or that their service is not every bit as blessed. - robin Thu, 19 Jun 2008 04:55:39 +0100 http://pres-outlook.com/opinion/guest-commentary/7448-can-i-get-a-witness-to-love.html#comment-3980 Dear Editor: In her Presbyterian Outlook guest viewpoint of May 28, Lisa Larges writes this about homosexual "marriages": [quote] Our marriages are blessed by and joined together by God — we know so by the joy that is ours in the unity of love. We know we are blessed by God when we support each other through sickness and in health. We know we are blessed by God through prayerful reading of Scripture and the assent of the congregations we belong to. We know we are blessed by God when we worship as a family in the midst of the community of faith. We know we are blessed because God has joined us together. This is a truth that transcends sexual orientation and gender identity. [/quote] The arguments that Larges gives here for her claim that homosexual unions are marriages that are blessed by God are all based upon experience. (The one Scriptural argument that Larges mentions, "prayerful reading of Scripture", does not hold weight against the solid Biblical scholarship on this issue that has been done by Robert Gagnon.) We have heard similar experience-based claims made before. The problem with this type of claim is that it can easily be made for many other types of relationship. It would be very easy for a different group of people, such as pedophiles or polygamists, instead of GLBT people, to make the same claims. These other groups of people could also tell us about their joy in the unity of their love, and their support for each other through sickness and health; they could tell how they believe that God has joined them together, and perhaps they might even have congregations that assent to their unions. Would we then want to say that their unions were blessed by God? For that matter, those of us who believe that sexual activity is reserved for marriage between one man and one woman could point to our experience of prayerful reading of Scripture and the assent of our congregations and of the church throughout the ages, in support of this doctrine. Presumably Larges would not wish to accept our experience in this matter. Experience, then, is not alone a convincing argument for the validity of a claim that God has or has not blessed a particular type of sexual union. In the realm of Christian doctrine and church standards, we need Scriptural support in order to know what God approves and what God does not approve. As a side note, I would like to point out that in her final paragraph, Larges makes the error of assuming that those who disagree with her are merely ignorant and/or fearful of the unfamiliar. It is condescending and even insulting to assume that the belief that sex is reserved for marriage between one man and one woman is based merely upon that being a familiar situation, and that the concept of fairness in this situation has not occurred to them. Deborah Milam Berkley Member, First Pres. Church of Bellevue (WA) - The Presbyterian Outlook Fri, 30 May 2008 19:03:41 +0100